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welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world
with me George Galloway and me gayatri
locked and loaded
Donald Trump fired the first shots of
his new era in Afghanistan rather than
over the Korean Peninsula but they
haven't gone away you know by the time
he got to Phoenix for his next
rabble-rousing
Donald Trump had kim jong-in firmly back
in his sights it could all end with a
burger in a battle of the haircuts or we
could all end up flame-grilled
of course Korea could be a cipher for
China in all of this sabre-rattling by
the u.s. at least that's my theory but
why deal with theory when we can hear
the facts from an expert our first guest
is eminent professor Stephen Chan OBE of
the School of Oriental and African
Studies in London professor Stephen
thanks for joining us on the sputnik is
there any significance that the meeting
and Camp David with his generals about
which he tweeted last weekend seems to
have been about Afghanistan rather than
Korea or might they be going to fight on
two fronts that probably gearing up to
at least be ready to fight on more than
one front but Donald Trump over to the
world some kind of policy all
Afghanistan your serratus military we
were waiting to see what they would be
doing in that part of the world so it
was genuinely a meeting about
Afghanistan but I would be very
surprised of other parts of the world
other theaters weren't very very deeply
discussed although if you look back at
his campaign pledges and his tweets the
last thing in the world you would have
expected would have been Donald Trump to
reinforce the failure of Afghanistan
does he have any better ideas in
relation to Korea I have this vision of
him like dr. Strangelove astride a
nuclear weapon with a cowboy hat on
shouting yeehaw as he heads for
Pyongyang might it come to that I think
even his generals are very worried it
might come to that and they're trying
very hard to act as risk
in force you don't launch a military
action unless you've got objectives that
can be fulfilled and wholesale
destruction is not an objective that is
very much recognized as desirable these
days but he really doesn't have a policy
he really doesn't have a strategy
towards North Korea
he's very very much bellicose rhetoric
and every single time he utters some of
this very warlike talk the North Koreans
just called his bluff but China has come
up as well and they made a clear stance
has that kind of put trump back in his
place also they also warned Trump just
in the last couple of days I think that
world leaders not just those bot leaders
but many others have been warning Donald
Trump not to take this beyond a certain
very very limited point the entire
asia-pacific community of nations for
instance the last thing they want is a
nuclear holocaust on their doorstep the
it's come to something that what is
regarded as a primitive regime in
Pyongyang seems to have outfoxed the
might of the American diplomatic and an
propaganda machine would you say so they
do games theory and they do negotiating
strategy just like anyone else and
they've calculated they can call Donald
Trump's bluff because what had Trump's
options either to continue
saber-rattling or actually to drop the
bomb and they'd know that he'd be very
very unlikely to drop the bomb given
current world opinion so they can push
him and they can push him and they're
doing it very very well in the Battle of
the two sides in fact there's North
Korea that's showing greater rationality
of a bloody-minded nature right now
sanctions is what Russia warned about
during the week that don't put more and
more sanctions onto North Korea because
you're only going to push them into a
corner where they'll they really have
little to lose absolutely not only that
not only do you push the regime into a
corner those sanctions have a direct
effect on the population of North Korea
and what that does is to make them more
supportive of the regime
and so they become more patriotic as a
result of that so even if they don't
have political desires for the regime to
continue just out of sheer patriotism if
it came to a firefight they would stand
with the current leadership because many
people watching this probably against us
hegemony might find themselves over
sympathizing with with North Korea how
do you characterize the regime in North
Korea in in terms of the political
spectrum it's not just the West that
finds North Korea and agnatic and my
enigmatic I don't mean primitive they're
far more sophisticated in many ways and
many people think but even the Chinese
and the Japanese find North Korea very
difficult to deal with this is
historically the case and certainly the
case in modern times the idea that there
are hermit Kingdom aloof and isolated by
themselves is a long-standing historical
aspect of East Asian relationships but
underneath that very very difficult
enigmatic surface a very great deal of
planning takes place it's very bloody
minded is not exactly a user-friendly
regime the stories we get of great
repression are largely true but it is a
regime which functions on a very strange
kind of rationality and it is rational
which has survived to this present day
which has a formidable military machine
and which has a government that is
absolutely secure at this moment in time
is it left or is it right I mean it
waives a lot of red flags around but
this is a regime where the Sun followed
his father and his son followed him
which even in the annals of communist
nepotism has never been repeated before
the Chinese leadership today would
regard them as right-wing certainly I
think the Chinese would find them very
antiquated and they're thinking the
Chinese would like a North Korea more
progressive regime in terms of
relationships with the outside world
they don't want to keep riding shotgun
over North Korea forever but at the same
time they are very very loath to push
beyond a certain point there is still
some kind of respect
for the integrity of North Korea as a
sovereign state and also about porn I
don't think the West really gets this a
very very deep memory of the amount of
blood that Chinese soldiers lost in the
Korean War when I go to China and I ask
about Korea
the first response always is that we
can't forget our own people who died is
this something that this Hermit Kingdom
thing is applied to the mentality
amongst the people at least in the south
I mean one regime after another has been
more American than than the Americans
but deep inside are the people in the
South the same as the people in the
north I think that over the years there
has been a separation between the two
peoples even though ethnically of course
they come from exactly the same
background but I think it's probably not
quite correct to say they're more
American than the Americans I think what
they've tried to do is to become more
Japanese than the Japanese in other
words the Japanese were conquered yes in
World War two then set up an economic
miracle and industrial miracle and what
the South Koreans above will want as a
means of historical revenge as it were
but peaceful revenge there's to be seen
as even more successful economically and
industrially than the Japanese and
that's a very clear distinction between
south and north technological
development in the north has been very
very slow by comparison
it's as I've heard you say before it's
it's based on a kind of mechanical
process are they in the digital age now
prevented the digital age but it's not
widespread and they've been
experimenting with digital technologies
by hacking into the receivers and suit
how to do this very very well in terms
of applying this wholesale to both their
industrial development and particularly
to their military development they still
haven't been able to do that
successfully yet so to that extent the
West doesn't will have much to worry
about because the grade of their efforts
to acquire nuclear capacity
they may acquire a nuclear capacity of
some sort but their delivery systems
their reliability of their weaponry all
of that is going to be more than one
generation old I have been there twice
and I found it as a student of these
things interesting but most peculiar the
guide I had 24 hours almost a day he was
a good example of someone who was
clearly very bright but himself
hermetically sealed he knew nothing of
the outside world and yet appeared on
the face of it to know everything and he
genuinely believed Kim jong-il was the
leader then that Kim jong-il was
Superman that he could look a field of
grain and tell the farmers how it might
fructify more that he could look a piece
of science or engineering or any other
skill and lectured the people he seemed
really to believe that is this just a
front or other people really in millions
behind this juichi idea that the koreans
put forth the indoctrination schema very
very strong and very long-lasting in
North Korea so I'm not surprised two
people seemed actually to believe this
whether or not underneath that there's a
certain form of inscrutability to use an
old term in which they're not quite as
believing as they seem to that's another
question but certainly people that I
meet on the outside North Korean
ambassadors and North Korean diplomats
for instance once you get down and dirty
with them meaning when you get drunk
they do seem to have a far greater
amount of worldliness than meets the eye
well that's interesting as a non-drinker
I never get there evidently and the last
Korean diplomat I met has done a runner
and is now in Seoul or Tokyo or
somewhere spilling the beans on the on
the North Korean regime I entered the
mausoleum you might call it kind of
Graceland of
of Kim il-sung and now presumably his
son Kim jong-il there was mass hysteria
in the audience they all burst into
sobbing exactly the same moment so if it
is just choreography
I mean it's must be Berkeley with with
Rockets on absolutely but you've got to
have a comparative dimension here very
shortly after Chairman Mao died in China
for instance the crowds outside lining
up to go into his mausoleum were also
genuinely mournful when people in the
Soviet Union lined up to see the
embalmed corpse of Stalin it was genuine
sorrow now having said what of that in
certain Asian cultures it is as it were
a matter of good manners to be seen
publicly to weep on an occasion which is
meant to be a sad one so what they might
have been doing may have had nothing to
do with hysteria and simply something to
do with good manners someone in the
crowd starts weeping well you better
start weeping too otherwise you're going
to be the impolite one in this gathering
how extraordinary that's the real danger
of North Korea good manners professor
you're a genius thank you very much
indeed for joining us thank you
Barcelona terror we're next stay tuned
welcome back to Sputnik there should be
no doubt that the world is at war it's
not a world war yet but there is war
throughout the world just last week
hundreds were mowed down by terrorists
in Barcelona and cam brill's in Finland
and Syria Iraq Nigeria trust me I could
go on
of course the definition of terrorism is
hard to agree as the great intellectual
Peter Ustinov put it war is a terrorism
of the rich and terrorism is the war of
the poor but he said that a long time
ago
today's terrorism is a method a means by
which the innocent are made to pay the
price for the guilty a method of murder
and mayhem which identifies the softest
possible targets and murder some Russia
also suffers terrorist attacks mainly
emanating from the same Al Qaeda Isis
swamp which attacks people from Kuala
Lumpur to Manchester with nobody left
out in between Russia has actually
defeated terrorism in the past not
something you could save for the bush
Blair wars on terror and a Kremlin
advisor at the time they did is our next
guest
Alexander nekross off who joins us now
Thank You Alexander for coming back on
the Sputnik let's start with Barcelona
this is a pretty perfect case study
isn't it absolutely I think it's the
first time that we can peel the onion of
the terrorist attack and see where it
started who is behind it how it was
prepared and so on usually we get all
the terrorists short killed murdered and
we don't know anything so this time
round we know that it's a tiny tiny town
Spanish town of repol which is only
11,000 people might be even called the
village that was this Imam who was
actually quite a colorful colorful
person with a colorful past how he
became an imam is difficult to
understand but he somehow managed to
sort of slip you know through the net
and use this human
rights laws to remain in Spain so this
is the man who is the brain behind both
of the attacks and what is interesting
is that it appears now that the Spanish
police has found that he has a direct
link to the Syrian Muslim Brotherhood
now that is where the whole story begins
sort of from the Syrian middle-eastern
angle what what is also has come out is
that the mosque where he operated from
was influenced by the Muslim Brotherhood
now I'd like to remind readers that the
Russians you mentioned that the Russian
government managed to suppress terrorism
Russian government banned the Muslim -
bravo suit on its territory it's
considered a terrorist group now it has
been appealing to the Western countries
to do the same but it has not been done
and although the Rockhold's as I
understand now the linkage here is that
the Muslim Brotherhood is financed by
certain countries including Qatar at
least they're accused of that Kuwait
some others and that is why one of the
reasons why there is a conflict between
Saudi Arabia United Arab Emirates Egypt
and Qatar now I must say that Russia
today has been covering that conflict
between the Arab nations and some called
in Western media seems to be fallen
silent about it completely if you notice
that because they have friends on both
sides and yes I know but it is
interesting because you know Russia did
offer to help mediate you know this
conflict because really nobody wants
this to get out of control but strangely
enough the Western powers are saying
well that's not you know let's not even
talk about it let's just stop this and
turning to Saudi Arabia and Egypt and so
on that's a you know way of Qatar you
know this is not a good idea because
there's this is a principle conflict
about you know supporting extremism
especially in Syria and now in Europe
and I think that's quite strange
that we have a situation like that well
strange indeed as you know I I don't
entirely share your view on this for a
number of reasons for me Saudi Arabia
and Qatar are exactly the same both our
terrorist funders both are ideological
fountainhead's of this terror phenomenon
but now I want to pick up something that
you said which was very profound
actually when you talked about the
colorful past of this Imam outside
Barcelona I wrote recently that actually
we're better looking not in the mosques
but we have to look there but in the
nether world for the kind of people who
will be up next to kill themselves and
as many of us as they can take with them
yet again this amount even was a drug
peddler was in prison you are importing
massive amounts of hashish the youth
involved were only months before chasing
girls taking drugs drinking alcohol and
time after time from nice to Berlin to
Manchester to London Bridge and so on
these people who are committing these
acts
I'm not your regular prayer at the
mosque not mr. pious but mr. strip club
owner in Mullen back in in in Barcelona
I'm not making that up the two guys in
the Bataclan owned a strip bar in
Brussels well it is amazing and you're
right because what has come out from
Ripoll is that these guys didn't really
attend the mosque they sort of came in
once or twice probably to meet their mom
for something else so the Muslims there
are now quite upset about this and
they're saying you know they are not one
of us and this is one point what I find
amazing and I think that you know people
who are interested in the causes of
terrorism and how it operates and how
people are recruited I advise them to
read further the styrsky The Devil's
because the Devils is a novel about
terrorism but terrorism
Russia but the interesting thing is that
the styrsky describes what sort of
people go into terrorism and how they
operate and for example he was the first
well great writer to say that they
operate in cells that don't know each
other so the one of the people in the
book who is in charge of this terrorist
organization he tells one of the
characters oh they don't know each other
I know but they don't know each other so
even if one cell is smashed the others
don't know who the others are and I
think the styrsky he put his hand on it
that these people who are terrorists he
says I'm not really about any religion
these people are mostly criminals about
power and money or they're criminals
because they're you know petty criminals
just like these guys you know into drugs
and do this and do that and I think this
is the important message that
governments fail to deliver we have to
distinguish religion and terrorism and
this is not working because basically
the opinion in the West o Muslims
terrorism this has to be mistaken this
has to be divided the day this is the
first time though I mean I'm well aware
of cell structure both in terrorism and
even in revolutionary politics
revolutionary struggle if you're a
revolutionary a cell is a good idea this
is the biggest seller ever heard of I
mean there's I don't know how many dead
how many in prison it's a pretty big
cell in a very small town it amazes me
the Austin Powers caliber of those who
are fighting the terrorism how is it not
possible to notice a growing bond
between a group of the best part of 20
people all of fighting age before they
explode well first of all I think that
in this town I think there was only one
police
one something as far as I know and I
think that the reason icicle problem I
think the reason why they chose this
town is because exactly for that purpose
who would think that it's there you know
they would look at big cities they would
look at metropolis as where there's a
possibility there so thinking about you
know big mosques and so on and so on but
you said that you did not agree with me
now I think that this strategy was not
devised by a mom but this a mom this
comes from the Muslim Brotherhood the
people who are you know understand how
it's done and they're quite strong in
Syria by the way they are were the ones
who are waging the war and and and I
have just read yesterday that the Muslim
Brotherhood in Syria is side by side
with al-qaeda and Isis so yeah yeah
they're cooperating so you see this is a
very powerful entity now and and it's
not a coincidence that the Russians
immediately pointed out the Muslim
Brotherhood because they saw the danger
in Russia for them and that is why and
they do talk to to the Western
governments and tell them about this
problem now I think this has something
to do with strategy developed by
somebody else
this guy Imam this this Imam he doesn't
look like you know a strategy you think
it's a copycat
you think it's proper least you know I
think it was very carefully planned by
somebody else because George pointed out
quite correctly you know he did with
drugs he spent time in prison years yeah
he doesn't look like a man who thinks
you know in a way that the strategic so
somebody else somewhere was giving him
instructions and somebody else somewhere
chose this small
I don't know village town how you call a
triple and that that's why I think the
reason why I started peeling the onion
over stereo attack I think this is a
situation which exists somewhere else as
well that is why now they will have to
look for this tiny tiny small
and search there because suddenly
they're confronted with a very different
problem something that is completely
they unaccustomed to it thanks for
joining us thank you and now it's your
turn to tell us what you think through
the portals of social media what's
rattling Gayatri
so you recently tweeted a doom president
a doomed war and a doomed Empire - its
Simon replied the doomed are those
troops sent to the pointless war and for
what end
apart from greasing the arms industry
pockets and Adam Smith said well he
surely hasn't learned from history that
Afghanistan is an unwinnable war
well Afghanistan is an unwinnable war
and Korea is even more unwinnable and of
course now at least the Afghans are
fighting in their sandals with with
primitive rifles some of which they
stole from the Russians as long ago as
the 1980s the Koreans on the other hand
have millions of people under arms
bristling with nationalist and ending
any attack by Trump on Korea will see a
complete conflagration yeah in the
region exactly and it's only three three
got time for today which alas means
that's the end of the show but you can
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from me Gayatri I'm from me George
Galloway it's been marvelous
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